Curse

Trylo · May 25, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

If your half decent, you wont be getting hit when kiting, and obviously you dont move until you have laid down your 4-6 seconds snare.

Divineshadows · May 25, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I have seen an awful lot of elementalists, and a few exceptionally good ones (I make a point of watching Dan Jang play ele through obs mode, he's an outstanding player). Played right, they are indeed very useful characters. I would know. But they are not *offensive* characters. The job of a well-played ele is somewhere around 80-90% defense. Once you realize that you're a fancy monk that can toss an Orb when it's called for, you can start playing the class well.

They truly are a defensive character, which explains why I transitioned to an elementalist so easily in PvP given that 75+% of my PvP time is spent playing monk. Even though I had never played an elementalist in PvE and had spent quite a bit of time playing warrior, ranger, and mesmer in PvE, my transition to playing an elementalist in GvG/TA went so much smoother than any other class (including monk).

Everytime I see an elementalist in PvP that thinks they are a spiker, I die a little bit. It is just like everytime I see a beastmaster or thumper in PvP that has chosen to bring a bear as their pet.

Undivine · May 25, 2006, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

1) Thanx undivine, your doing a good job holding off the masses

It doesn't seem like it.

Fitz Rinley · May 25, 2006, 01:01 PM // 13:01

I am curious with all the DPS comparisons how the Ele and Warrior compare against classes whose skills have no impediments. Mesmer chaos damage cannot be blocked with armor. Dark damage dealt by ritualists and necromancers also cannot be blocked with armor. Lightening only has armor penetration benefits. Shadow damage (many nec spells) ignores armor and directly affects target. Life draining skills directily affect target. A new Mesmer non-elite skill does 8 degen, add that to migraine, and the new burden spell with energy regain, and I strongly suspect they become one of the most fearsome classes on the board. (Not that they were inconsequential before - just to Interrupt myself.)

The fact remains that an Ele whose damage is 50-75% evadable in AoE, whose casting time makes them easily interupted on virtually every skill that has any damage dealing potential, whose energy is just a health regen for the enemy or equally eliminated by other skills, and whose casting time makes them little more than damage dealers to the corpses, needs some work.

Fitz

Roupe · May 25, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

I think the strongest argument that the Elementalists are "underpowered" is that ANet had to TRIPPLE the damage dealt from Elementalist bosses, for them to be a challenge, If the bosses would have done as little damage as normal player elementalist -they would be total pushovers.

Blinding flash is also easily removed with various condition removal, that is both cheap & fast

Vexx007 · May 25, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

I also find my Ele(1st char) underpowered. I must also mention in complete fairness that I am playing a pyromancer and that I have little to no experience in the other elements.

The idea I got of an Ele when I first bought the game and read through the manual is that he will be the best damage dealer over range, with low armor, and a warrior will deal slightly less melee damage, with high armor. Sadly this was not true for the Ele.

I really and truelly believe that the Ele is an broken class. So what should I recommend to fix this?

1) I like the idea of extra energy regen pips, for more points in Energy Storage.

2) Another nice idea, add conditions to all spells. Say for instance all fire spells cause burning, lightning spells cause blinding/knockdown(?), earth weakness/knockdown(?) and water slowdown/heal(?). And leave the damage as is. This option might be overpowered but atleast it is an constructive idea.

3) As for the AoE spells, MS and FS AoE should definitely be increased to hit enemies atleast 2-3 times while running away. MS should knockdown as soon as the first meteor animation hits the ground. I feel that to comment on the other elemental branchess' (sp?) AoE spells would be unfair since I have no experience using them.

I would also like to mention that exhaustion is unique to an Ele and I really like it, it adds a kind of authenticity to the Ele. Lastly, I am glad that I am not a ANET Guild Wars skill balancer.

jagwire · May 25, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11

My elementalist build solod the guild hall yesterday, I took out the body guards in less than 5 seconds, its not hard. You have to incorperate the armor bonuses from the other spells like armor of earth and kinetic armor. Keep those spells on and your good for armor, with aura of restoration it even makes your health balance out. I don't go anywhere without aura of restoration. If you don't think then damage output is good, you have to keep the enemies inside the aoe "long casting" spells using something to slow them down.

The Great Al · May 25, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

I think meteor shower needs to be fixed as well - it says for 10 seconds foes are struck for x damage each second, but it certainly does not seem as though they get hit 10 times, unless im misreading something.

also, burning needs to occur on more spells, and it needs to either last longer or have more of an effect

makosi · May 25, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Al

I think meteor shower needs to be fixed as well - it says for 10 seconds foes are struck for x damage each second, but it certainly does not seem as though they get hit 10 times, unless im misreading something.

also, burning needs to occur on more spells, and it needs to either last longer or have more of an effect

Meteor shower lasts for 9 seconds and knocks foes in the AoE down every three seconds.

Trylo · May 25, 2006, 09:37 PM // 21:37

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I must also mention in complete fairness that I am playing a pyromancer and that I have little to no experience in the other elements.

thank you for being honest, i actually read your post

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A new Mesmer non-elite skill does 8 degen

For 25 energy... 10 energy immolate does the same thing for a little less time (3 secs) but 41 dmg to start with. But i dont use fire and know their exact damage do i?

ps. Anyone who says ele hexes can be removed easily, why arnt they removed??? Why not just make everything either a domination mesmer, war, monk or channeling rit? Would it be a better game?

Meteor shower doesnt need to be fixed, it needs to be put in that cabinet with aura of restoration and ether renewal. The dead after ascalon cabinet.

Glyph of renewal + meteor does much more effective damage IMO.

Burning does not need to occur in more spells, it just needs to... no you need to see some other ele spells than fire. Fire only helps assassins and wars in close range with inferno and others.

Cjlr · May 25, 2006, 09:43 PM // 21:43

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Originally Posted by Trylo

1) CAN ANY caster outdamage a war without using ANY SKILLS??? NO! i swear your not listening, at all.

No, you see, that's not what I said. Nice job not directly quoting me on that, btw. A warrior with no skills deals ~2600 damage per minute, depending on his weapon of choice. An elementalist, with a purely offensive skillbar, approaches that number when he has 8-9 pips of energy regeneration.

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=Trylo]4) Just up all ele spell by like 50% and itd fix so many problems.....

So... They do have a problem? Did you not just say they didn't?

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Originally Posted by Trylo

When you play an ele for a year, like me, in PVP + PVE, you realize whats effective and whats not. AOE nerf, good idea IMO. And my first char = ele.

I've played over 300 hours on my elementalist; it's not a huge number and you probably have more, if you've played one for a year. But I have a decent maths background. A warrior will outdamage an elementalist on a single target. Period. That's what we call a fact.

Trylo · May 25, 2006, 09:48 PM // 21:48

ok, there is a problem with fire magic. its not a good offensive line compared to just about any other class. Im not sticking up for fire, but for the supporting ele.

ELES are not supposed to be that person doing 500 damage in a hit. Wars do their eviscerate for roughly 200 some for the deep wound. Im not arguing that. Im not arguing fire magic is good and does massive amounts. IMHO fire magic is not worth anything. If everyone thinks MS is amazing, they haven tried some good ele builds before. If they are trying to fix MS, good luck, youll need it.

Eles were created to outdamage anything. They obviously didnt hold this promise to us. The warrior can easily outdamage an ele, and usually quickly. The ele really is an advancing monk and utility, but very valuable none the less. Try playing with a warding spike ele, they can get 100+ AL easily and for a very little cost. Im really serious, just go try and play a warding ele, you migh find it really is a big help to your team, especially if you know what youre doing.

A Gust {E} air/water ele IS the best snare in the game. Try being a war or sin and live through being slowed by 33% half the time and sitting on your butt the other half. Its not fun, especially if the ele coorinates with a monk to stop opposing wars/rangers/sins. If im an ele, i really dont care about other eles on the other team, most of the time they ARE pyros or air eles with MS or no KDs. It doesnt work, btw. They kinda suck.

ps ~ the quote thing isnt working anymore, ive been trying to get it to but it never seems to quote the person anymore?

Cjlr · May 25, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

ok, there is a problem with fire magic. its not a good offensive line compared to just about any other class. Im not sticking up for fire, but for the supporting ele.

That's not the issue. We all realize that elementalists can make a decent support class. Not outstanding, but pretty good. There's a dozen or so good team-oriented skills, and if you throw in some other professions' skills *cough*heal party*cough* you can fit together a decent support build.

The problem is that all of the game-universe material says that elementalists are for damage. The manual says it; the trainers say it; common sense says it. You don't learn mastery over the elements in order to conjure up a soft breeze and a gentle spring rain. It's freaking firebombs and earthquakes you're after. If you want to be in a supporting role, you pick a Monk, or to a lesser extent, a Mesmer, Necromancer, or Ritualist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

ELES are not supposed to be that person doing 500 damage in a hit. Wars do their eviscerate for roughly 200 some for the deep wound. Im not arguing that. Im not arguing fire magic is good and does massive amounts. IMHO fire magic is not worth anything. If everyone thinks MS is amazing, they haven tried some good ele builds before. If they are trying to fix MS, good luck, youll need it.

That's just it... What exactly are they supposed to do? Stand around looking pretty? They already do that. Pop some blinds off? Ward? Yeah, options, but they shouldn't be the only ones. ANet can do two things with elementalists: They can either stop calling them damage dealers in the first place, or they can actually allow them to live up to that reputation.

Even you can see the problem. You said, "fire magic is not worth anything." Direct quote. Surely you can see that, in a game like Guild Wars, there should not be inviable attribute lines. Fire magic ought to have it's place, along with anything else. Or should Hammer Mastery be useless, too? How about Channeling? Or Domination Magic?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

ps ~ the quote thing isnt working anymore, ive been trying to get it to but it never seems to quote the person anymore?

I didn't seem to have any problems with it...

Fitz Rinley · May 25, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

One of the consistant problems I observe is the question of ''ought to.'' Some here quote the box/book saying the Ele ought to be highest damage dealer because this is what they wrote. Nice legalism, I would even buy it as valid. Some say the Ele is only a support class and imply it should have no other function. Some are quoting mathematics to prove their point, which again I buy. However, what is completely overlooked is the entertainment value of the game is conceptual, not factual.

Elementalists are refered to as mages, wizards, and nukers. If what they do does not meat the expectation then they are a broken class. If, as someone said (and I have no link to verify this with) ANet did have to triple the damage of Ele bosses for them to be a challenge, then they should have done the same for players, or at least raised it 150% to 200%. If the class is not capable of being a mage, wizard, and/or nuker for the casual player - then it breaks the expectation and is broke. Thus it needs fixing.

Fitz

Trylo · May 25, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cjlr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trylo
ps ~ the quote thing isnt working anymore, ive been trying to get it to but it never seems to quote the person anymore?

I didn't seem to have any problems with it...

Thanks for that, it made me feel all good inside.

Yes, Anet needs to just up the damage A LOT on fire skills if they would even be considered by me, but then everyone would complain about air magic skills and how they should do more damage since they are the original spike. But air already does enough with KDs and (Blinding Flash, Lightning Javelin) etc.

I like hammer mastery, btw. Same with Beast Mastery. I guess i just got the short end.

Roupe · May 25, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

I think the opinion that the elementalist could at least "play" a tank and get heavy armor bonus, ad focu on assisting the rest with some stationary wards is kinda weak.

First of all movement is key to victory read "Kiting and Damage Mitigation Through Movement",
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3041944

thus suggestions that the Elementalist should put up wards that isnt moving, or use armor spells that hinders the Elementalists own movement is IMO null.

Second, Even if the armor is great, since The Elementalist has low hitpoints, degens penetrating it, will quickly kill the Elementalist

Third, In a Random team, Honestly Dont you desire a Monk or Warrior in the team instead, of an Elementalist?

Their usefullness would be much more appreciated as warders if the wards that Elementalist put up had a much larger area, similar to that of spirits,
As it stands now they have to rely on their secondary proffesion (often monk), and (or) do damage for weakening( not killing )foes for others to kill.

Trylo · May 25, 2006, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roupe

since The Elementalist has low hitpoints

Every class has base 480 health. Misconceptions...

You have a good point about Kiting and moving hindering, Try frost armor and fire resistant ele armor?

ps ~ that thread you posted should be crammed in any kiters head by... the time they start. its basic info.

Cjlr · May 25, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

Thanks for that, it made me feel all good inside.

Either that was sarcastic, in which case I apologize, or it wasn't, in which case I don't give a sh*t.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

But air already does enough with KDs and (Blinding Flash, Lightning Javelin) etc.

Blinding flash is great, when there's no condition removal around. Lightning Javelin? So-so. It misses a lot (though it's not as bad as Lightning Orb), it does pretty crummy damage, and it almost never triggers the "if target foe is attacking" clause (in my experience). Stuff like Gale or Shock is pretty decent for knockdowns. But it all comes back to damage. Powerful mages don't mess around with pretty lights and tripwires. A tad cliched, perhaps, but true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

I like hammer mastery, btw. Same with Beast Mastery. I guess i just got the short end.

Wait, you thought... ? I wasn't dissing those attributes at all. I was just pointing out that every other class can throw together a successful build that revolves around a single attribute line. Elementalists have more trouble doing that - especially if they try to deal damage. Hammers are wonderful things. Beat Mastery is quite well conceptualized, although the implementation could use a little work - it is a pain to have to count on unreliable triggers for pet attacks. Especially ones like Bestial Pounce or Disrupting Lunge.

Beat_Go_Stick · May 26, 2006, 06:14 PM // 18:14

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Originally Posted by Buoyancy

I'm not sure why you're proud of the fact that you're ignorant and have refused to do basic research about the topic you're debating. Anyways, the thread is located at: Why Nuking Sucks

Thank you....and I was actually trying more to point out the fact that your tone was insulting than claiming to be ignorant. Your whole "read the WHOLE THREAD and if you don't, you have no clue" comment was rather elitist and painted you as way too full of yourself.

And guess what. It hurts less than eviscerate+executioner's strike.

Yet the 5 point condition removal that comes after the warrior combo is more effective than the 5 point Orison or Reversal that comes after the Ele spike. *shrug* it's nice to look at things as black & white but the game as a whole is a bit more complex than that. More on this in a little bit...

Actually, that would be a good start towards balancing their squishiness with their current lack of damage capability.

No, it would remove any down-side to their high damage/heavy effect skills and unbalance a whole mess of spells. Lessening Exhaustion or increasing the rate of healing based on your Energy Storage skill would be much more acceptable (it would still need to be tested vs. possible over-empowerment) but everyone who wants Elementalists to be buffed doesn't really seem to think about balance, just about making their class uber. There are changes I could see and welcome in the Ele class but everything I see people recommend is simply outrageous and over the top.

They definetly need faster casting and recharge times. After all, even the best elementalist damage over time currently falls behind the best warrior damage over time.

Yeah....and what else can a Warrior do? You guessed it, nothing. A Warrior has a single ability. A single job. A single thing they can do. They need to be within melee range to do it so they should be able to do it well, I would think.

And that energy buffer is absolutely useless once you've spent it. Are you expecting your opponent's to be so incompetent that they can't manage to survive through the roughly 400 damage that 100 energy will provide an elementalist?

What? 400 pts of damage from a 100 energy pool? I don't know what skills you're using but 100 energy + 4 pips of e-regen is enough to maintain that minute of Flare you mentioned should you choose to do it (though you would be near 0 energy once finished). How is that 400 damage?

Flare spam requires 8 pips of energy regen to maintain, and causes no more damage than an autoattacking warrior.

I'd also be curious to see it compared to the DPS of an autoattacking Ranger just to see how it measured up to a ranged attack instead of a melee one...

Ok, so I read your Nuking Holy Bible and found pretty much exactly what I figured I would find (people agreeing that Warriors do more damage but split on whether or not Elementalists are "broken"...sound familiar?) and exactly what I've heard time and time again from Elementalists who want to be ranged Warriors on crystal meth.

I said it above and I'll say it again, a Warrior can do one thing. Damage. They have little to no energy or regen so other support style builds are impractical. They have no ranged attacks that they can perform consistantly aside from Gale and that is mainly used to get them close enough to start doing damage or to interrupt the anti-damage of their target. In the end, all they are is a point blank monster that has only 1 purpose in this game....pressure the enemy and make them use up their energy by preventing them from doing what they do better than any other class. Damage.

What would the purpose of a Warrior be if someone else could do damage just as well from a distance while simultaneously able to do a whole mess of other things? Reference Ether Renewal Smiter, Air Spiker, Heal Party Spammer, etc. vs. the single Warrior build in multiple forms: Damage Dealer.

Why should Elementalists, in addition to the utilitarian aspect of their class, be able to outdamage every other class? It makes no sense to say they should. Would you prefer they remove all the hexes, all the wards, all the utility and just buff their damage so they are ranged Warriors? Ridiculous! Come on, I could just as easily start a Mesmer thread that says "Rangers can interrupt more consistantly and cheaply with Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, and Punishing Shot than we can with our 15 energy interrupts...so fix our class!" but it would be just as closed-minded and unilateral a view as saying that the Elementalist class is "broken" just because it can't do more damage than every other class in the game.

I won't say reading that thread was a waste of time. It was actually quite interesting, but to assume that every other point of view is moot and unenlightened (as you were doing) just because they aren't making the same comparison you obviously are (straight up damage vs. damage) is idiotic.

I maintain my opinion that Elementalists are NOT broken just because they cannot outdamage a Warrior without running out of energy.
I maintain my opinion that they are useful in ways other classes could never be and are, therefore, a very viable class to play.
I maintain my opinion that people who focus entirely on nuking and expect/demand that they be the best damage dealers on the planet are missing what it really is to be an Elementalist.

Prove to me that Elementalists are not up to par with other classes in ways other than JUST DAMAGE and I will reconsider those opinions. As it is, when I PvP with one, I sure as hell don't feel like a 5th wheel or a liability better replaced by another class.

Buoyancy · May 26, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick

Ok, so I read your Nuking Holy Bible and found pretty much exactly what I figured I would find (people agreeing that Warriors do more damage but split on whether or not Elementalists are "broken"...sound familiar?) and exactly what I've heard time and time again from Elementalists who want to be ranged Warriors on crystal meth.

If elementalists are going to be the damage dealers that their skills are set up for them to be, then they had better be able to do more damage than a warrior given their inferior survivability.

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What would the purpose of a Warrior be if someone else could do damage just as well from a distance while simultaneously able to do a whole mess of other things? Reference Ether Renewal Smiter, Air Spiker, Heal Party Spammer, etc. vs. the single Warrior build in multiple forms: Damage Dealer.

Well, the point would be that the warrior is still harder to kill, and harder to shut down than that other class. I guess if you wanted to give elementalists 80+20 vs physical armour, then their current lack of damage capability would make more sense.

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Why should Elementalists, in addition to the utilitarian aspect of their class, be able to outdamage every other class?

Maybe the fact that all but a doezn or so elementalist skills are supposed to cause damage should be enough of a reason? Maybe the fact that the best use you can find for an E/? is ether renewal powered heal party spam should be enough of a clue that something is wrong?

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Would you prefer they remove all the hexes, all the wards, all the utility and just buff their damage so they are ranged Warriors?

I would think that most people would prefer that the damage be buffed so that the damage is at least competitive, and hopefully matches the advertised state of being greater than every other class. Otherwise there's absolutely no point in the vast majority of elementalist skills. I'd think that many elementalist players would also be far happier if the the half dozen useful utility spells weren't used as a justification for nerfing their damage.

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I won't say reading that thread was a waste of time. It was actually quite interesting, but to assume that every other point of view is moot and unenlightened (as you were doing) just because they aren't making the same comparison you obviously are (straight up damage vs. damage) is idiotic.

Would you care to point out some official documentation that states that elementalists are supposed to be utility and support classes?

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I maintain my opinion that Elementalists are NOT broken just because they cannot outdamage a Warrior without running out of energy.

That's a nice opinion. Everybody has an opinion, guess what else everybody has.

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I maintain my opinion that they are useful in ways other classes could never be and are, therefore, a very viable class to play.
I maintain my opinion that people who focus entirely on nuking and expect/demand that they be the best damage dealers on the planet are missing what it really is to be an Elementalist.

How are elementalists useful in ways that other classes could never be? Why would you play an E/? instead of a M/E, N/E, or Mo/E if all you wanted was the utility spells?

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Prove to me that Elementalists are not up to par with other classes in ways other than JUST DAMAGE and I will reconsider those opinions.

Why should I bother to deal with you moving the goalposts? Why don't you give a real reason to play an elementalist as a primary profession, since apparently you are happy with actually being a monk, rather than a damage dealer.